From jmoschetti45@gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 21:03:40 2005
From: jmoschetti45@gmail.com (Joe Moschetti)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:03:40 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Conflict with gaim-encryption plugin
Message-ID: <ab7d49a20510091303r7d83474cy162ea7e12642960@mail.gmail.com>

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I'm using gaim 1.5.0 for windows and the latest version of the
gaim-encryption plugin and the OTR plugin. When I attempt to use both
plugins at the same time when talking to someone I get "OTR Error: You sent
unencrypted data to jmoschetti45, who was expecting encrypted messages from
you." on one end and "The following message received from jmoschetti46 was
not encrypted: [test]" on the other. This only happens when I use both
plugins at the same time. I believe that somewhat defies the point, but I
was curious and wanted to try it. Any solutions?

--
Joe Moschetti
http://jmoschetti45.ath.cx/

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I'm using gaim 1.5.0 for windows and the latest version of the
gaim-encryption plugin and the OTR plugin. When I attempt to use both
plugins at the same time when talking to someone I get &quot;OTR Error: You
sent unencrypted data to jmoschetti45, who was expecting encrypted
messages from you.&quot; on one end and &quot;The following message receive=
d from
jmoschetti46 was not encrypted: [test]&quot; on the other. This only happen=
s
when I use both plugins at the same time. I believe that somewhat
defies the point, but I was curious and wanted to try it. Any solutions?<br=
 clear=3D"all">
<span class=3D"sg"></span><br>-- <br>Joe Moschetti<br><a href=3D"http://jmo=
schetti45.ath.cx/">http://jmoschetti45.ath.cx/</a>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Sun Oct  9 21:49:07 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 16:49:07 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Conflict with gaim-encryption plugin
In-Reply-To: <ab7d49a20510091303r7d83474cy162ea7e12642960@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ab7d49a20510091303r7d83474cy162ea7e12642960@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051009204907.GH847@smtp.paip.net>

On Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 04:03:40PM -0400, Joe Moschetti wrote:
> I'm using gaim 1.5.0 for windows and the latest version of the
> gaim-encryption plugin and the OTR plugin. When I attempt to use both
> plugins at the same time when talking to someone I get "OTR Error: You sent
> unencrypted data to jmoschetti45, who was expecting encrypted messages from
> you." on one end and "The following message received from jmoschetti46 was
> not encrypted: [test]" on the other. This only happens when I use both
> plugins at the same time. I believe that somewhat defies the point, but I
> was curious and wanted to try it. Any solutions?

gaim-encryption and gaim-otr both assume that no other plugin is going
to mess with its output.  gaim-encryption sends encrypted data directly
to the IM network, while gaim-otr sends protocol setup messages that way
(though it does pass data messages through whatever other plugins are
installed).  The result is that gaim-otr can set up a private channel,
but when you type a message, gaim-encryption will encrypt and send it
before gaim-otr has a chance to gets its hands on it.

So the other side will receive a gaim-encrypted message, which
gaim-encryption will decrypt to plaintext, and pass to the next plugin,
gaim-otr, which complains that it received plaintext when it expected
OTR-encrypted data.

[Note that this behaviour only appears if gaim-encryption is before
gaim-otr in gaim's internal plugin list; slightly different (but equally
nonsensical) behaviour occurs if it's in the other order.]

The solution?  As you might expect, Don't Do That, Then.  ;-)  It's not
like you're getting the benefits of both plugins; you're effectively
just using gaim-encryption.

In fact, even if both plugins *were* being used, and you ended up with
some sort of nested gaim-encryption of OTR-encryption, you *still* lose
over OTR alone, since the signature on the gaim-encryption layer will
defeat the deniability of the OTR layer.

Out of curiosity, is gaim-encryption useful in some way that gaim-otr
isn't?  I've only used it briefly (mainly in diagnosing problems like
this), but it seems that gaim-otr has a strict superset of the
functionality of gaim-encryption.  Is there a reason for two people who
have both to want to turn on gaim-encryption?

Thanks,

   - Ian

From mail@christian-bick.de  Sun Oct  9 22:49:34 2005
From: mail@christian-bick.de (Christian Bick)
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 23:49:34 +0200
Subject: [OTR-users] Gaims logs
Message-ID: <4349906E.6040101@christian-bick.de>

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Hi,

I use the gaim-otr under GNU/Linux, am I'd like to log all my unencryptet conversations.
My problem is, that gaim logs all conversations, even the otr encryptet ones, in
unencryptet text, so that everyone could read it.
Now I wantet to ask if it would be possible to add something like a checkbox in the plugin
configuration, that says "Do not log otr-encryptet messages." or something like that.
Unfortunatly I'm not a coder, so i cant do it on my own.

Greets Chris

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 10 14:06:57 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:06:57 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Gaims logs
In-Reply-To: <4349906E.6040101@christian-bick.de>
References: <4349906E.6040101@christian-bick.de>
Message-ID: <20051010130657.GI847@smtp.paip.net>

On Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 11:49:34PM +0200, Christian Bick wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I use the gaim-otr under GNU/Linux, am I'd like to log all my
> unencryptet conversations.  My problem is, that gaim logs all
> conversations, even the otr encryptet ones, in unencryptet text, so
> that everyone could read it.
>
> Now I wantet to ask if it would be possible to add something like a
> checkbox in the plugin configuration, that says "Do not log
> otr-encryptet messages." or something like that.
>
> Unfortunatly I'm not a coder, so i cant do it on my own.

That's a plausible feature request.  Could you add it to the tracker at
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=128860&atid=713091 ?

Thanks,

   - Ian

From gdt@ir.bbn.com  Mon Oct 10 18:57:14 2005
From: gdt@ir.bbn.com (Greg Troxel)
Date: 10 Oct 2005 13:57:14 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Conflict with gaim-encryption plugin
In-Reply-To: <20051009204907.GH847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <ab7d49a20510091303r7d83474cy162ea7e12642960@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051009204907.GH847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <rmill116yrp.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>

I had the same problem, but I don't think "don't do that" is entirely
reasonable.

  Out of curiosity, is gaim-encryption useful in some way that gaim-otr
  isn't?  I've only used it briefly (mainly in diagnosing problems like
  this), but it seems that gaim-otr has a strict superset of the
  functionality of gaim-encryption.  Is there a reason for two people who
  have both to want to turn on gaim-encryption?

I would say that no, if both have OTR, gaim-encryption is not useful.
I installed gaim-encryption to test it when handling an upgrade PR for
gaim-encryption's pkgsrc entry, and ran into what seems like the same
problem.

I think the root of the problem is that there is opportunistic support
in both plugins.  OTR appends whitespace tags and negotiates, and I'm
not sure what gaim-encryption does.  But, if they are in the same
order (and reverse order on the way back) each should be able to
operate, with OTR setup messages being carried over gaim-encryption or
the other way around.  This wouldn't be useful in a crypto sense,
except that having a working conversation is more useful than not.

So, I think gaim needs plugin ordering tokens, so that there can be
consistent ordering for plugins across clients.  And then
gaim-encryption, or perhaps OTR, may need some help.

All that said, given that OTR is better than gaim-encryption and I
don't have any friends who use it and not OTR, I'm not inclined to
spend cycles on this, and I certainly wouldn't expect Ian to do so.

-- 
        Greg Troxel <gdt@ir.bbn.com>

From james.mahler@gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 03:35:38 2005
From: james.mahler@gmail.com (James Mahler)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:35:38 -0500
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
Message-ID: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

    I just stumbled across gaim-otr plugin tonight because well the
need for it just arose recently.  I think it's a great idea and wish
that I could get everyone to install the plugin so I could have more
secure IMs.

    Anyways, my idea was just an aesthetic one.  My conversation
window has the buttons set to just pictures.  However the OTR button
is just text.  I'd think OTR could tie in transparently with gaim (you
wouldn't even know it was a plugin) if the button were say a lock that
was open and a lock that was locked (to show private or not).

    I'm not on the mailing list or anything, just an idea to perhaps
help the project out.  Maybe there is someone good with gtk but not
with security that wants to help out (I am horrible with gtk and never
got the patience to learn it as I learned others first and am stuck in
my ways :)).

James Mahler


From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Fri Oct 14 06:45:34 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 01:45:34 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051014054534.GO847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 09:35:38PM -0500, James Mahler wrote:
>     Anyways, my idea was just an aesthetic one.  My conversation
> window has the buttons set to just pictures.  However the OTR button
> is just text.  I'd think OTR could tie in transparently with gaim (you
> wouldn't even know it was a plugin) if the button were say a lock that
> was open and a lock that was locked (to show private or not).

That's actually already implemented in the CVS version (though with
different icons).

Thanks for the feedback, though!

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Fri Oct 14 06:53:30 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 05:53:30 +0000
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>

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From kat@paip.net  Fri Oct 14 07:02:26 2005
From: kat@paip.net (Kat Hanna)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 02:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510140155270.16444@marshall.paip.net>

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

> i've totally thought the same thing. i was thinking about this just the
> other day. it seems so trite, but it would just look so much better.
> hopefully they'll add this. shouldn't be hard really.

As noted by Ian, this is in the CVS version.

> one thing though. did they ever get that "bug" fixed where eve can make bob
> think alice's message is coming from her?

The fix for this, which is a new protocol version, is in development.
[See the dev list for details.]  It should be out within the next month
or so.

 -Kat


> On 10/14/05, James Mahler <james.mahler@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I just stumbled across gaim-otr plugin tonight because well the
> > need for it just arose recently. I think it's a great idea and wish
> > that I could get everyone to install the plugin so I could have more
> > secure IMs.
> >
> > Anyways, my idea was just an aesthetic one. My conversation
> > window has the buttons set to just pictures. However the OTR button
> > is just text. I'd think OTR could tie in transparently with gaim (you
> > wouldn't even know it was a plugin) if the button were say a lock that
> > was open and a lock that was locked (to show private or not).
> >
> > I'm not on the mailing list or anything, just an idea to perhaps
> > help the project out. Maybe there is someone good with gtk but not
> > with security that wants to help out (I am horrible with gtk and never
> > got the patience to learn it as I learned others first and am stuck in
> > my ways :)).
> >
> > James Mahler
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OTR-users mailing list
> > OTR-users@lists.cypherpunks.ca
> > http://lists.cypherpunks.ca/mailman/listinfo/otr-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> IN A FEBRUARY 2004 SPEECH AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, CIA
> DIRECTOR TENET REVEALED THAT CIA "ANALYSTS NEVER SAID
> THERE WAS AN IMMINENT THREAT" FROM IRAQ BEFORE THE WAR.
>
> --http://bushlies.net/pages/10/index.htm
>

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Fri Oct 14 07:08:50 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 06:08:50 +0000
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510140155270.16444@marshall.paip.net>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510140155270.16444@marshall.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510132308j4a3d547do51f1cb021597f1e2@mail.gmail.com>

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From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Fri Oct 14 16:14:23 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:14:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510132308j4a3d547do51f1cb021597f1e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510140155270.16444@marshall.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510132308j4a3d547do51f1cb021597f1e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510141712470.23956@tla.xelerance.com>

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

>
> Then I also hope I'll never have to see a message to the effect of "you sent
> encrypted data to..who wasn't expecting it". If the session isn't encrypted,
> my data should just go through unencrypted, or perhaps there could be an
> option to have it ask you first to make sure, just in case you're not
> capable of looking at the lock icon first.

You can'y. If we are talking securely, and you quit gaim and log back in,
we no longer have a secure connection, but I don't know about that, so I
just send you an encrypted message.
Currently, you will respond by setting up a secure connection, and my end
will automatically resend the previous message with the new encryption keys.

Paul

From gdt@ir.bbn.com  Fri Oct 14 17:21:07 2005
From: gdt@ir.bbn.com (Greg Troxel)
Date: 14 Oct 2005 12:21:07 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] picture buttons
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510132308j4a3d547do51f1cb021597f1e2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <924783600510131935i16344934lb8b6da1873339b50@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510132253w5ce7083ak9511a9456b512615@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510140155270.16444@marshall.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510132308j4a3d547do51f1cb021597f1e2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rmislv483yk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>

CLAY SHENTRUP <CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM> writes:

> Then I also hope I'll never have to see a message to the effect of "you sent
> encrypted data to..who wasn't expecting it".

Perhaps that's just a UI issue, but I prefer to see that than to have
the key exchange and retransmit be silent.

> If the session isn't encrypted, my data should just go through
> unencrypted,

That's totally broken from a security viewpoint; if there's a reason
not to send data in the clear, it shouldn't happen without conscious
effort.  I set policy to 'require OTR' for most people, so if I don't
have an OTR security association key exchange is forced.

> or perhaps there could be an option to have it ask you
> first to make sure, just in case you're not capable of looking at
> the lock icon first.

It's not a questions of not being capable; crypto UIs should enable
people who are tired or stressed to make the right choices without
having to be careful.  Having to check lock icon constantly fails this
test.


-- 
        Greg Troxel <gdt@ir.bbn.com>

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Sun Oct 16 22:14:21 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:14:21 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
Message-ID: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>

After what seems like forever, the new gaim-otr and otrproxy are ready
for beta testing.  Please report problems you encounter, particularly
when you and/or your buddy is logged in multiple times; we don't have a
good handle on how that should be resolved just yet.

The primary change in this version is the implementation of OTR Protocol
version 2, using the SIGMA AKE (Authenticated Key Exchange).  This
resolves the identity-binding flaw that was pointed out in version 1.
This version will fall back to version 1 if your buddy can't speak
version 2, but it will warn you it's doing so.

Other changes include:

gaim-otr:
    - Almost all of the popups have been changed to inline messages.
    - New fingerprints don't block everything until you verify them;
      rather, you are merely informed of the new fingerprint, and
      conversations using it will be marked "Unverified" until you
      indicate that you've verified it (at which point the
      conversations will be marked "Private").
    - The OTR button now has icons in addition to text (and they
      properly obey gaim's "text and/or icons" setting), as well as a
      right-button context menu containing some useful options.

otrproxy:
    - Handle non-ASCII charsets properly.

Not implemented yet:
    - Being able to configure whether to fall back to version 1 or not.

You can check out the new code from sourceforge CVS:

http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=128860

We've also built some Windows binaries.  NOTE: there are not installers;
they're meant to replace the corresponding files in older versions.  So
if you've already got an older version of gaim-otr installed, just
replace the gaim-otr.dll file with the one in the gaim-otr zip file.
Similarly, replace the otrproxy.exe file you've got with the one in the
otrproxy zip file.  If you don't have OTR software installed yet, either
install the last release, and continue as above, or just sit tight and
wait for a release.  ;-)

http://otr.cypherpunks.ca/binaries/windows/gaim-otr-3.0.0beta1-win32.zip
http://otr.cypherpunks.ca/binaries/windows/otrproxy-0.3.1beta1-win32.zip

If someone wants to compile up binaries for OSX, that'd be awesome.
I'm assuming Unixy people will just compile their own; if that's a bad
assumption, we can try to put up some binaries for them as well.  But
you may just want to wait for the release, when the various package
maintainers will have their way with it.  ;-)

Remember: these are *betas*.  Which means we're pretty sure they work,
but we want feedback.  Send feedback to this list, or by email to
<otr@cypherpunks.ca>.

Note to Evan: it look less than an hour to convert gaim-otr to use the
new API.  I assume doing the same for the Adium X native-UI stuff will be
similar, but let us know if you run into problems.

Note to package maintainers: please don't package the betas; we hope to
release this version in short order.  [And when we *do* release it,
remember that it's a security fix, for package formats that can
accomodate such notations.]

Thanks, and have at it!

   - Ian

From aldert@rotz.org  Mon Oct 17 17:15:37 2005
From: aldert@rotz.org (Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:15:37 +0200
Subject: [OTR-users] Google Alert : How to keep instant messaging off the record
In-Reply-To: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org>

Google pointed me today at :
http://internet.newsforge.com/internet/05/10/07/1521221.shtml?tid=13

Nice article !

Aldert.

From gdt@ir.bbn.com  Mon Oct 17 19:06:23 2005
From: gdt@ir.bbn.com (Greg Troxel)
Date: 17 Oct 2005 14:06:23 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>

Sounds good.  For v1 fallback, probably this should be per-buddy
configurable whether to allow v1 or not.


  Note to package maintainers: please don't package the betas; we hope to
  release this version in short order.  [And when we *do* release it,
  remember that it's a security fix, for package formats that can
  accomodate such notations.]

OK, but for my own testing I'd want to package it so I can flip back
and forth.  Could you make a 'make dist' tarball via automake, and set
the version to something like 2.8.0 if you are planning 3.0, or 2.1.8
if you are planning 2.2, following the old GNU 'alpha' convention?
I'd update pkgsrc and see how that goes (so if trouble you can fix
before release) but not commit the changes until you have a real
release.



-- 
        Greg Troxel <gdt@ir.bbn.com>

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Mon Oct 17 21:21:33 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:21:33 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Mon Oct 17 21:25:31 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:25:31 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>

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From alex323@gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 21:55:21 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:55:21 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>	 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>	 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig2E44C4F741437265B3A09C59
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

How are these images?

http://alexwied.com/~alex/otr_images.zip

 - Alex

CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

> Hey Ian,
>
> You think you could maybe ask some hippies at Cal to submit some nice
> drawings for those "lock" icons.  We've got some 2nd grade art gumming
> up the works on the beta.  Let's think padlock symbols eh?  Makes for
> a much more intuitive interface methinks.
>
> Sincerely,
> Clay
>
> P.S.  I'd do it, but I can't draw good.
>
> On 10/17/05, *CLAY SHENTRUP* <CLAY@brokenladder.com
> <mailto:CLAY@brokenladder.com>> wrote:
>
>     For added giggles, throw TOR into the mix.  Yum.
>
>     Clay Shentrup
>     California Pacific Medical Center
>     San Francisco, CA
>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 17 22:07:34 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:07:34 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 01:25:31PM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Hey Ian,
> 
> You think you could maybe ask some hippies at Cal to submit some nice
> drawings for those "lock" icons. We've got some 2nd grade art gumming up the
> works on the beta. Let's think padlock symbols eh? Makes for a much more
> intuitive interface methinks.

But it's also not quite enough information.  There are four states that
need to be distinguished:

- Not Private  (the "X")
- Unverified   (the "?")
- Private      (the checkmark)
- Finished     (the "do not enter")

I also wanted to stay away from the padlock to mean "private", since
most apps use it to mean "encrypted", which is a weaker notion that's
more like our "unverified".  But that could just be semantic games on my
part that no one else cares about.

But if someone donates some good-looking xpms for these four states, I'd
be happy to take a look.  They should have a transparent background, and
be around 20x20.  [The current ones are 24x24, and are a little too
large.]

And note that neither Nikita nor I is at Cal any more; we've both
graduated.  ;-)

   - Ian

From alex323@gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 22:22:03 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:22:03 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>	 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>	 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <435415FB.30800@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig37ECFFD0FF5006FB8F11E8D8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

64.62.190.63 - - [17/Oct/2005:17:20:39 -0400] "GET /~alex/otr_images.zip
HTTP/1.1" 200 39174 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; X11; Linux
i686; en) Opera 8.5" "-"

Yeah, it shold work now. Sorry about that.

 - Alex

Alex wrote:

>How are these images?
>
>http://alexwied.com/~alex/otr_images.zip
>
> - Alex
>
>CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hey Ian,
>>
>>You think you could maybe ask some hippies at Cal to submit some nice
>>drawings for those "lock" icons.  We've got some 2nd grade art gumming
>>up the works on the beta.  Let's think padlock symbols eh?  Makes for
>>a much more intuitive interface methinks.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Clay
>>
>>P.S.  I'd do it, but I can't draw good.
>>
>>On 10/17/05, *CLAY SHENTRUP* <CLAY@brokenladder.com
>><mailto:CLAY@brokenladder.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    For added giggles, throw TOR into the mix.  Yum.
>>
>>    Clay Shentrup
>>    California Pacific Medical Center
>>    San Francisco, CA
>>
>>    
>>


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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Mon Oct 17 22:22:19 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:22:19 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171422wcf02cffr638ed835ed71334c@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Mon Oct 17 22:39:55 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 14:39:55 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 17 22:49:55 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:49:55 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171422wcf02cffr638ed835ed71334c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510171422wcf02cffr638ed835ed71334c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051017214955.GX847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:22:19PM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Ian,
> 
> I think it's interesting, perhaps unusual, that you chose to have the
> plug-in keept track of verification state. I envisioned that as something
> you'd check before accepting the fingerprint in the first place. You'd call
> the person, or use some trustworthy second channel, to get a fingerprint of
> his long-term key. When using OTR with someone for the first time, you would
> see a "popup" (this could just be text in the channel window) that would ask
> you to accept the fingerprint. You wouldn't select "yes" until you had
> verified it. I'm not sure why the new plug-in readily allows the user to
> start the session knowing that the other party's fingerprint has not been
> verified.

Because, mainly, that's not how it works in practice.  [That's how the
plugin used to behave.]  People generally just click to dismiss the
dialog box, usually without even reading it.  This way, they're free to
do that, and the plugin will just note that they haven't explicitly
checked the fingerprints yet.  When/if they actually *do* phone up their
friend, they can right-click on the OTR button and choose "Verify
fingerprint".  At that point, their icon will change to "Private".

There are also a couple of technical issues.  One is that the old way, if
Alice accepts Bob's fingerprint, and sends a message, but Bob hasn't yet
accepted Alice's fingerprint, they'll get all sorts of errors.  Another
is that allowing you to verify a fingerprint *after* the session is
established allows more flexibility in the choice of how to actually
verify it.  One thing we want to do in the future is allow for
"preshared secrets".  You convince your friend (while you're out in a
bar) to install OTR when she gets home, and scrawl some random secret on
a napkin.  After she installs OTR (and generates her fingerprint),
you'll be able to authenticate each other by each typing the secret into
your client.

> I also don't know what you mean by "finished". If a session has expired, the
> lock should just be unlocked, right? I'm still not sure why you're not just
> using locked and unlocked, two icons only.

"Finished" indicates that your buddy has terminated his end of the
private conversation (and let you know that).  It's now pointless to
send him encrypted messages, and you *don't* want to automatically
switch to sending plaintext messages (imagine you were in the middle of
typing something private when this happened, just before you hit
"Enter").  So we instead switch to this mode which blocks all outgoing
messages to this buddy, until you choose to either explicitly go
plaintext, or else restart the private conversation.

> P.S. I figured you were teaching at UC, since the original /. article called
> you "UC crytographers" or something like that.

Yeah, we used to be (students) at UC, but not any more.

   - Ian

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 17 22:54:59 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:54:59 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:55:21PM -0400, Alex wrote:
> How are these images?
> 
> http://alexwied.com/~alex/otr_images.zip

I wonder if they'll survive a shrinking to 20x20.  The ones with the
lock, along with the ?, check, and X look plausible, but we'd still need
one for "Finished", which none of those seem to fit.

And the padlock still doesn't quite sit right with me.

Where'd they come from?  [We'd need to clear the licensing issues, of
course, if we included them.]

Thanks,

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Mon Oct 17 23:02:11 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:02:11 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171502p7e9c4695h543c1678c5ce4c88@mail.gmail.com>

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From alex323@gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 23:06:16 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:06:16 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <43542058.9090407@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig1F0074BD9C97DAB47C3F1A5B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

They came from something related to Gnome actually. I am about 99% sure
that they are GPLd. I can go search for a "finished" icon.

 - Alex

Ian Goldberg wrote:

>On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:55:21PM -0400, Alex wrote:
>  
>
>>How are these images?
>>
>>http://alexwied.com/~alex/otr_images.zip
>>    
>>
>
>I wonder if they'll survive a shrinking to 20x20.  The ones with the
>lock, along with the ?, check, and X look plausible, but we'd still need
>one for "Finished", which none of those seem to fit.
>
>And the padlock still doesn't quite sit right with me.
>
>Where'd they come from?  [We'd need to clear the licensing issues, of
>course, if we included them.]
>
>Thanks,
>
>   - Ian
>_______________________________________________
>OTR-users mailing list
>OTR-users@lists.cypherpunks.ca
>http://lists.cypherpunks.ca/mailman/listinfo/otr-users
>
>  
>


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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 17 23:34:13 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:34:13 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171502p7e9c4695h543c1678c5ce4c88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510171502p7e9c4695h543c1678c5ce4c88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051017223413.GZ847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 03:02:11PM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> If I may suggest just making a greyscale version of the current
> "unencrypted" torn padlock icon. Simple, denotes that the session is not
> encrypted, and the grey look has a sort of intuitive relationship with
> termination, like the way logged-off buddies are grey. It's really the
> behavior that is important--blocking the messages until the user selects
> unencrypted--not so much the appearance.

You can't make icons differ only in colour.  Not everyone can
distinguish colour.

   - Ian

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 17 23:37:03 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:37:03 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051017223703.GA847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 02:39:55PM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> If I verify a session key with a friend, recognizing his voice on the phone
> for instance, that satisfies the requirements for verifying his fingerprint,
> dosen't it? This seems like an obvious yes, but I'm just checking.

A secure session id?  No, all that guarantees is that your current
conversation is private.  It does *not* guarantee that the fingerprint
you received is actually the correct one.

If you've got him on the phone, have him verify his fingerprint.  That's
sufficient, so long as his computer isn't compromised.  [If it is,
*then* use the secure session id instead.]

   - Ian

From alex323@gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 23:51:59 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:51:59 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>	 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>	 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43542B0F.6070106@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig41AEE7EE1ADAEF4C14F7A8DA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey, sorry about the 403 errors earlier. Apache was acting up. It works
100% now.

 - Alex

Alex wrote:

>How are these images?
>
>http://alexwied.com/~alex/otr_images.zip
>
> - Alex
>
>CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hey Ian,
>>
>>You think you could maybe ask some hippies at Cal to submit some nice
>>drawings for those "lock" icons.  We've got some 2nd grade art gumming
>>up the works on the beta.  Let's think padlock symbols eh?  Makes for
>>a much more intuitive interface methinks.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Clay
>>
>>P.S.  I'd do it, but I can't draw good.
>>
>>On 10/17/05, *CLAY SHENTRUP* <CLAY@brokenladder.com
>><mailto:CLAY@brokenladder.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    For added giggles, throw TOR into the mix.  Yum.
>>
>>    Clay Shentrup
>>    California Pacific Medical Center
>>    San Francisco, CA
>>
>>    
>>


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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Tue Oct 18 00:08:30 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:08:30 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017223703.GA847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017223703.GA847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171608o47531691mf5f16bbeda4e4c6a@mail.gmail.com>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 03:19:52 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:19:52 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510171608o47531691mf5f16bbeda4e4c6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com> <20051017223703.GA847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510171608o47531691mf5f16bbeda4e4c6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051018021952.GC847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2005 at 04:08:30PM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> >
> > A secure session id? No, all that guarantees is that your current
> >
> conversation is private. It does *not* guarantee that the fingerprint
> > you received is actually the correct one.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. If the session key was
> ultimately derived from your private diffie-hellman generator value, and a
> signed public diffie-hellman value from the other party, then this would
> seem to indicate that only a person who actually has the private key from
> which a fingerprint is derived could have produced that session key. If you
> call up your friend and recognize his voice, and he verifies that session
> key, he has to be the real owner of the private key that produces the
> fingerprint that you think he has. If that fingerprint wasn't really his,
> how would he know that session key?
> 
> Where is this rationale broken?

Indeed, the session key is derived from your private diffie-hellman
keys, which is why, if you verify the session key, you're assured that
the person at the other end of the encrypted pipe is who you think it
is.

The public diffie-hellman keys are then signed by your DSA keys (~= your
fingerprint).  It's possible that a Man-in-the-Middle removed your
buddy's signature from the Key Exchange Message, and substituted his
own.  If you verify the session id, you'll know that you are in fact
talking to your buddy, and the MITM won't be able to read your messages,
but the fingerprint you see will be *his*, and not your buddy's.

That's why it's preferable to check the fingerprint.  As long as your
private DSA keys remain safe, you only have to do it once, and *all* of
your subsequent sessions are protected.  Checking the session id is only
useful when your private DSA keys have been compromised, and it only
checks the privacy of that one session.

I think your confusion may have been between the long-lived public DSA
keys (from which your fingerprint is derived) vs. the short-lived public
Diffie-Hellman keys (from which the session id is derived).

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Tue Oct 18 03:40:04 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:40:04 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051018021952.GC847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017210734.GW847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510171439t54b4c154u6bed53f49e126f1@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051017223703.GA847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510171608o47531691mf5f16bbeda4e4c6a@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051018021952.GC847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510171940y77d22c68la8a2f867d582bf68@mail.gmail.com>

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From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 04:52:57 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:52:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> And the padlock still doesn't quite sit right with me.

Yes, I'd stay away from the locks too. Locks are binary, OTR states are not.

Paul

From alex323@gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 11:56:06 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 06:56:06 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig9F6C3812920EFF48B3681F94
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Paul Wouters wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>
>> And the padlock still doesn't quite sit right with me.
>
>
> Yes, I'd stay away from the locks too. Locks are binary, OTR states
> are not.

Isn't this why you have multiple locks?

 - Alex

>
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
> OTR-users mailing list
> OTR-users@lists.cypherpunks.ca
> http://lists.cypherpunks.ca/mailman/listinfo/otr-users
>

--------------enig9F6C3812920EFF48B3681F94
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From paul@xelerance.com  Tue Oct 18 04:46:24 2005
From: paul@xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:46:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] Google Alert : How to keep instant messaging off
 the record
In-Reply-To: <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180525100.15006@tla.xelerance.com>

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg wrote:

> Google pointed me today at :
> http://internet.newsforge.com/internet/05/10/07/1521221.shtml?tid=13

He got some minor errors though:

> Deniable authentication means that, while Bob is talking to Alice, he's
> assured that he really is talking to Alice, and not an imposter. However,
> Bob cannot turn around and prove to Charlie that he's talking to
> Alice. The key here is that all the messages between Alice and Bob come
> with proof that they were written by either Alice or Bob, but you can't
> tell which. When Bob gets such a message, he knows that he didn't write
> it, so it must have been written by Alice. But if Bob shows this message
> to Charlie, Charlie has no reason to believe Alice wrote it, since Bob
> could have written it himself.

He got it wrong here though :(
(deniability is in the fact that *afterwards* anyone can "encrypt" messages
with the 'leaked' the old keys, so *anyone* who sniffed the communications
  (not just alice or bob) could forge messages in the past (but not read any)

He also tried to run gaim with otrproxy, which is kinda weird.

Paul
-- 

"Happiness is never grand"

 	--- Mustapha Mond, World Controller (Brave New World)

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 13:54:18 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:54:18 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Google Alert : How to keep instant messaging off the record
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180525100.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180525100.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <20051018125418.GE847@smtp.paip.net>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 05:46:24AM +0200, Paul Wouters wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg wrote:
> 
> >Google pointed me today at :
> >http://internet.newsforge.com/internet/05/10/07/1521221.shtml?tid=13
> 
> He got some minor errors though:
> 
> >Deniable authentication means that, while Bob is talking to Alice, he's
> >assured that he really is talking to Alice, and not an imposter. However,
> >Bob cannot turn around and prove to Charlie that he's talking to
> >Alice. The key here is that all the messages between Alice and Bob come
> >with proof that they were written by either Alice or Bob, but you can't
> >tell which. When Bob gets such a message, he knows that he didn't write
> >it, so it must have been written by Alice. But if Bob shows this message
> >to Charlie, Charlie has no reason to believe Alice wrote it, since Bob
> >could have written it himself.
> 
> He got it wrong here though :(
> (deniability is in the fact that *afterwards* anyone can "encrypt" messages
> with the 'leaked' the old keys, so *anyone* who sniffed the communications
>  (not just alice or bob) could forge messages in the past (but not read any)

Actually, he's wrong in a few places, but this isn't one of them.  :-)

His explanation is a perfectly reasonable description of the *real-time*
deniable authentication of OTR; i.e. even during the conversation,
before the MAC keys are revealed, Bob can't prove to Charlie that Alice
wrote the message he just received.  Your description is of the
*after-the-fact* forgeability of messages, once the MAC keys are
revealed.

OTR offers quite a few layers of deniability:

- MACs on messages (the "real-time deniabilty")
- deriving the MAC key from the encryption key ("if you can read it, you
  can forge it")
- publishing the MAC keys (anyone can forge messages after the fact)

> He also tried to run gaim with otrproxy, which is kinda weird.

He apparently had trouble finding another Linux AIM client that
supported proxies.  Do you know of one?

   - Ian

From angelac@gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 15:52:28 2005
From: angelac@gmail.com (Angela Cheung)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:52:28 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] IM at work
Message-ID: <9810f6140510180752yc9dbd9t87527f3f6ff40b30@mail.gmail.com>

------=_Part_8060_10875978.1129647148198
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Content-Disposition: inline

i installed trillian on my work computer and have been using it for several
weeks. the IT department recently sent me an email saying said they noticed
"IM traffic" from my computer and asked me to remove the software. it's
driving me crazy that i can't make lunch plans! is there anything i can do
to get back on IM without their knowing?

thanks!

------=_Part_8060_10875978.1129647148198
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i installed trillian on my work computer and have been using it for
several weeks.&nbsp; the IT department recently sent me an email saying
said they noticed &quot;IM traffic&quot; from my computer and asked me to r=
emove
the software.&nbsp; it's driving me crazy that i can't make lunch
plans!&nbsp; is there anything i can do to get back on IM without their
knowing? <br>
<br>
thanks!<br>

------=_Part_8060_10875978.1129647148198--

From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 16:10:05 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:10:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] Google Alert : How to keep instant messaging off
 the record
In-Reply-To: <20051018125418.GE847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180525100.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <20051018125418.GE847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510181708180.24807@tla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Ian Goldberg wrote:

>> He got it wrong here though :(
>> (deniability is in the fact that *afterwards* anyone can "encrypt" messages
>> with the 'leaked' the old keys, so *anyone* who sniffed the communications
>>  (not just alice or bob) could forge messages in the past (but not read any)
>
> Actually, he's wrong in a few places, but this isn't one of them.  :-)

Okay, bad phrasing on my end :)

>> He also tried to run gaim with otrproxy, which is kinda weird.
>
> He apparently had trouble finding another Linux AIM client that
> supported proxies.  Do you know of one?

Kopete?

http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdenetwork/kopete/faq.html#id2570894

I have not tried this myself, as I do not run KDE.

Paul

From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 16:11:18 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:11:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] IM at work
In-Reply-To: <9810f6140510180752yc9dbd9t87527f3f6ff40b30@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9810f6140510180752yc9dbd9t87527f3f6ff40b30@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510181710300.24807@tla.xelerance.com>

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Angela Cheung wrote:

> i installed trillian on my work computer and have been using it for several
> weeks. the IT department recently sent me an email saying said they noticed
> "IM traffic" from my computer and asked me to remove the software. it's
> driving me crazy that i can't make lunch plans! is there anything i can do
> to get back on IM without their knowing?

That's not what OTR is about :)

Like anyone else, I guess try and use one of the IM web interfaces, if they are
not blocked.

Paul
-- 

"Happiness is never grand"

 	--- Mustapha Mond, World Controller (Brave New World)

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Tue Oct 18 16:17:02 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:17:02 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Google Alert : How to keep instant messaging off the record
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510181708180.24807@tla.xelerance.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <4353CE29.2030505@rotz.org> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180525100.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <20051018125418.GE847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510181708180.24807@tla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <20051018151702.GG847@smtp.paip.net>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 05:10:05PM +0200, Paul Wouters wrote:
> >He apparently had trouble finding another Linux AIM client that
> >supported proxies.  Do you know of one?
> 
> Kopete?
> 
> http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdenetwork/kopete/faq.html#id2570894
> 
> I have not tried this myself, as I do not run KDE.

That's the first one he tried, but in fact it does not support
application proxies; the only way to get SOCKS support in kopete is to
force *all* network connections from *all* KDE apps through the SOCKS
proxy, ugh.

   - Ian

From cracker@gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 16:15:09 2005
From: cracker@gmail.com (cracker@gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:15:09 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] Re: IM at work
Message-ID: <ca7621180510180815j3a2ea634qa05921b8be9bca94@mail.gmail.com>

------=_Part_13899_30983344.1129648509238
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Angela,

Check out AIM over the Web. You need to have Java installed, but if you
already do or can install it,
go to http://toc.oscar.aol.com, and enter your credentials in. Voila!

It's not as functional as the full client (you won't get a flashing window
popup when you get a new message)
but it'll do in a pinch.

Cheers,

Bk

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Angela,<br>
<br>
Check out AIM over the Web. You need to have Java installed, but if you alr=
eady do or can install it, <br>
go to <a href=3D"http://toc.oscar.aol.com">http://toc.oscar.aol.com</a>, an=
d enter your credentials in. Voila!<br>
<br>
It's not as functional as the full client (you won't get a flashing window =
popup when you get a new message)<br>
but it'll do in a pinch.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Bk<br>

------=_Part_13899_30983344.1129648509238--

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Tue Oct 18 17:46:20 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:46:20 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] Re: IM at work
In-Reply-To: <ca7621180510180815j3a2ea634qa05921b8be9bca94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca7621180510180815j3a2ea634qa05921b8be9bca94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510180946i162dc01dr3c21e3446d3005be@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Tue Oct 25 19:01:48 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:01:48 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
 <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Wed Oct 26 17:34:54 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:34:54 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 11:01:48AM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Hey Alex,
> 
> Looking through the gnome icon set, I found a padlock that is just unlocked.
> I think this could complete the scheme you had devised. I can send you the
> actual icon if you can't find it in your set.
> 
> unlocked padlock = unencrypted
> locked padlock with question mark = encrypted but fingerprint not verified
> padlock or padlock with little check mark = encrypted
> ripped apart padlock (eww..gorey) = "finished", session ovah, tuh-muh-nated
> (as the governator would say)

As I mentioned, I'm hesitant to go with the "padlock" theme.

> Is there a time frame for when the "finished product" should be released for
> mass consumption (windows installer, etc.) ?

I'd like to have it out in the next couple of weeks.

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Wed Oct 26 18:40:23 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:40:23 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
 <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510261040l5a295c7q54c1422dfea760a@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Wed Oct 26 19:03:51 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:03:51 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>
 <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510261103q6ed8ecd9m4c30fe52bcfb3406@mail.gmail.com>

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From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Wed Oct 26 19:20:59 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:20:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510261040l5a295c7q54c1422dfea760a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>  <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>  <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510261040l5a295c7q54c1422dfea760a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510262015440.25997@tla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

> > As I mentioned, I'm hesitant to go with the "padlock" theme.
>
>
> I've never seen anything but a lock icon used to indicate encryption in any
> app,

That is because "treaditional" encryption only has "on" and "off" states. The
only other software I know (and use) that has "off", "private and unverified"
and "private and verified" is ssh. And it does not have icons. It does have a
big fat "are you sure you want to connect to this new key?".

> I think
> any icon other than some derivative of a lock would seem to defeath the
> purpose of having an icon at all. Just my opinion, but of course I'm not the
> developer. I'm curious to see what other users think.

The theme of a padlock just isn't right. Another theme I could think of is:
not private: showing a crowd of silhouettes
unverified: showing a single person's silhouette (with a question mark?)
verified: showing a single person in colour (with a "V" tick or whatever "friend/buddy"
          icon denotes 'friend' these days).

Paul

From alex323@gmail.com  Wed Oct 26 21:50:16 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:50:16 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>	 <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>	 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>	 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>	 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>	 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>	 <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <435FEC08.80907@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enig1AC174D7FF307CBEE605ED21
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Go ahead and send me it, and I will add it to otr_images.zip.

 - Alex

CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

> Hey Alex,
>
> Looking through the gnome icon set, I found a padlock that is just
> unlocked.  I think this could complete the scheme you had devised.  I
> can send you the actual icon if you can't find it in your set.
>
> unlocked padlock = unencrypted
> locked padlock with question mark = encrypted but fingerprint not verified
> padlock or padlock with little check mark = encrypted
> ripped apart padlock (eww..gorey) = "finished", session ovah,
> tuh-muh-nated (as the governator would say)
>
> Is there a time frame for when the "finished product" should be
> released for mass consumption (windows installer, etc.) ?
>
> Clay
> -- 
> NUMBER OF COALTION SOLDIERS KILLED IN IRAQ AS OF OCT 25, 2005: 1999
> SEE THEIR NAMES HERE: http://icasualties.org/oif/US_NAMES.aspx
>
> SEE THE CIVILIAN TOLL HERE: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
> <http://www.iraqbodycount.net/> 


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From rabbi@abditum.com  Wed Oct 26 22:09:44 2005
From: rabbi@abditum.com (Len Sassaman)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> As I mentioned, I'm hesitant to go with the "padlock" theme.

I second that. As you've said, the only truly intuitive "padlock" modes
are open or closed, and they imply security states rather than privacy
ones (Broken locks, question marks, etc., all require extra information as
to their meaning in this context.)

A good icon scheme will convey the status of the protocol state without
requiring the user to develop a context-specific understanding of
otherwise meaningless symbols.

Ideally, you should be able to present an OTR-enabled IM client to a user
who has no knowledge of OTR's functions beyond "privacy protection", and
they should be able to tell you what the OTR icons mean. I think anything
having to do with locks would fail that test.

[I'm not convinced icons are the best way to convey this information,
actually, but I believe we're somewhat limited in terms of UI changes we
can make (though Adium is possibly an exception.)]


--Len.



From alex323@gmail.com  Wed Oct 26 22:32:34 2005
From: alex323@gmail.com (Alex)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:32:34 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com> <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com> <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com> <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>
Message-ID: <435FF5F2.5090003@gmail.com>

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156)
--------------enigDEFADBE971C8E8AEBD31B8CB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Len Sassaman wrote:

>
>I second that. As you've said, the only truly intuitive "padlock" modes
>are open or closed, and they imply security states rather than privacy
>ones (Broken locks, question marks, etc., all require extra information as
>to their meaning in this context.)
>
>A good icon scheme will convey the status of the protocol state without
>requiring the user to develop a context-specific understanding of
>otherwise meaningless symbols.
>  
>
How about a "pie chart"? A full pie means that the conversation is
secure and that OTR is active. Anything short of a complete circle would
signify that OTR is not fully active. Each quarter (or fifth) can have a
special meaning as specified by a pop up legend. Each pie piece gets a
different colour. However, we will not fully rely on colour. We would
use the position of the pie piece to determine its meaning. For example,
The top left pie piece could mean that we have sent out an OTR invite.
As the process continues, another pie piece is shown representing the
specific OTR entity that is not functioning.

What do you think?

 - Alex

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From paul@cypherpunks.ca  Wed Oct 26 23:19:10 2005
From: paul@cypherpunks.ca (Paul Wouters)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:19:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <435FF5F2.5090003@gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>
 <435FF5F2.5090003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510270017510.6709@tla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Alex wrote:

> How about a "pie chart"? A full pie means that the conversation is
> secure and that OTR is active. Anything short of a complete circle would
> signify that OTR is not fully active.

But someone who has 3/4th of the pie might think he is "reasonably secure"
while in fact he might be talking to a MITM.

A pie chart gives a percentage, which is not what we want to show either.

Paul

From kat@paip.net  Wed Oct 26 23:28:18 2005
From: kat@paip.net (Kat Hanna)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510270017510.6709@tla.xelerance.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com> <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>
 <435FF5F2.5090003@gmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510270017510.6709@tla.xelerance.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261820450.1674@marshall.paip.net>

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Paul Wouters wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Alex wrote:
>
> > How about a "pie chart"? A full pie means that the conversation is
> > secure and that OTR is active. Anything short of a complete circle would
> > signify that OTR is not fully active.

I agree with Len's point about a novice user needing to be able to
figure out the icons intuitively.  This idea fails that test.

I think Paul's ideas are good, and probably pass the novice test, but I
want to think a bit more before I endorse them as-is.  What do other
people think about them?

 -Kat

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 00:20:58 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 16:20:58 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0510261358390.29325@thetis.deor.org>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
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From paul@xelerance.com  Wed Oct 26 19:22:33 2005
From: paul@xelerance.com (Paul Wouters)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:22:33 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [OTR-users] New gaim-otr and otrproxy ready for beta testing
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510261103q6ed8ecd9m4c30fe52bcfb3406@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>  <rmi4q7gggrk.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171321ye9afa6pb9f4677ea7d45ea0@mail.gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510171325t4f0f409cxf25f2ae01d873d8c@mail.gmail.com>
 <43540FB9.3070209@gmail.com> <20051017215459.GY847@smtp.paip.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510180552080.15006@tla.xelerance.com>  <4354D4C6.7020104@gmail.com>
 <9129d8bb0510251101j60db34f3g208175cb6a0f72ab@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051026163454.GD847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510261103q6ed8ecd9m4c30fe52bcfb3406@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0510262021270.25997@tla.xelerance.com>

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:

> so what about the idea of making the graphical indicator split up these two
> concepts somehow. you could have verification state specified by something
> like a full color face if verified or a silhouette with a question mark if
> not. or something along those lines.

I guess we had similar ideas pop up :) Perhaps that shows it's a good theme :)

> then beside this you could have an icon like a lock

Though I still don't see why we should have a lock :)

Paul
-- 

"Happiness is never grand"

	--- Mustapha Mond, World Controller (Brave New World)

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 18:28:24 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:28:24 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>

OK, here's beta 2.  There are new icons in this one; let me know what
you think.

*Note*: the version 2 Data Message format has changed slightly.  So if
you downloaded beta1, you need to get beta2 ASAP, or you won't be able
to talk to OTR version 2 people.

http://otr.cypherpunks.ca/binaries/windows/gaim-otr-3.0.0beta2-win32.zip
http://otr.cypherpunks.ca/binaries/windows/otrproxy-0.3.1beta2-win32.zip

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 18:49:29 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:49:29 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 19:01:45 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:01:45 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 10:49:29AM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Ian,
> 
> You said you were against the idea of "greyscaling" the image to
> differentiate two states, since there are colorblind people out there. But
> when I deverify someone, the little gaim icon just turns grey.

I am indeed against it.  I'd like to add a (green) checkmark and a
(yellow) question mark to those two images.  But my image-manipulation
skills aren't so great.  Anyone?

> Also, the unencrypted state shows multiple people, as if to indicate a
> "conference" or something like that. Very confusing, especially for someone
> not that technically inclined, or familiar with OTR.

In fact, it indicates "public".  But "conference" isn't far off; if you
send a message in that state, there are a whole bunch of people that can
read it.

> Is there any sort of resource editor in Windows that lets you edit a dll's
> images? There was in BeOS I remember. If anyone knows an easy way to edit
> these things, please let me know so I can change the images and send them to
> my friends.

Probably not in this case, since the windows build is a cross-compile,
and doesn't use external resources.  Moreover, having the icons be in
separate files is fraught with potential packaging / installation
problems.  I'd much prefer (at least for now) to keep it all in one file.

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 19:06:53 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:06:53 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 19:26:54 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:26:54 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510271126h786bb493ge84c7b3e44bb67b8@mail.gmail.com>

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From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 19:29:57 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:29:57 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027182957.GK847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:06:53AM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> some consistency issues here..
> 
> if lighting up vs. greying out delineates verified vs. unverified for the
> "single person" state, then it should do the same for the "multiple people"
> state. if i'm not currently in a secure session with someone, but he's
> verified, his "multiple people" icon should be colored, but right now it's
> grey, whether the person is verified or not.

I think you've got a misapprehension.  Buddies can have zero or more
fingerprints, each of which can be verified or not.  If you're not
currently using OTR, there's no "verified" or "not verified"
[i.e. *fingerprints* are verified, not *buddies*].

You can't be in a verified private convesation and not be in a private
conversation at the same time.

> is there any amount of money i could donate to the project for you to make
> the icon set dynamic in the final release, so the user could configure it.
> i'm not rich or anything, but it just shows i'm willing to put my money
> where my mouth is.

It won't happen for this release for sure.  After that, we can talk.  :-)

   - Ian

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 19:37:33 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:37:33 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510271126h786bb493ge84c7b3e44bb67b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com> <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271126h786bb493ge84c7b3e44bb67b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027183733.GL847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:26:54AM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Okay, but I'm still curious about the "finished" state. I'm trying to
> understand how it's different, behaviorally, than unencrypted. Could one say
> that it is essentially like being unencrypted, but have "require encryption"
> turned on, so that a new message isn't sent until the session has been
> refreshed?

If you type a message when you're in "Not private", it gets sent to your
buddy in the clear.  If you type a message when you're in "Finished",
nothing at all gets sent to your buddy, and an error is given to you.

> > In fact, it indicates "public". But "conference" isn't far off; if you
> > send a message in that state, there are a whole bunch of people that can
> > read it.
> 
> Could potentially read it, but aren't necessarily.

And how do you know which is the case?  From a privacy point of view,
lots of people may as well be reading it.

> I think multiple people
> icons gives the impression that multiple people _are_ involved in the
> conversation. I'm trying to put myself into the mindset of a typical (dumb)
> computer user here.

And they _are_ involved, as far as you know.

> Does this new beta have what you consider to be the final version of OTR for
> the time being. That is, there are no more changes planned in the actual
> protocol for the time being, and any known security holes have been
> addressed?

The identity-binding flaw has been addressed.  We reserve the right to
change the v2 protocol until the official release.  [But at present, we
don't intend to do so.]

   - Ian

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 19:47:07 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:47:07 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com> <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <20051027184707.GM847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 02:01:45PM -0400, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> I am indeed against it.  I'd like to add a (green) checkmark and a
> (yellow) question mark to those two images.  But my image-manipulation
> skills aren't so great.  Anyone?

OK, I added the question mark to the unverified icon, and left the
private icon as it was.  If you download beta2 again, you'll get the new
version (yeah, I know, modifying a file once I've announced it; but it's
only been up for an hour :-p ).

If you don't want to download the betas, you can see the new icons here:

http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/help/buttonhelp.php

[The text is not finished yet, but the icons are there.]

   - Ian

From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 19:51:26 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:51:26 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027182957.GK847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051027182957.GK847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510271151j31e6fea1jdfc8d8c3bb46c8e6@mail.gmail.com>

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From CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM  Thu Oct 27 19:55:15 2005
From: CLAY@BROKENLADDER.COM (CLAY SHENTRUP)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:55:15 -0700
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510271151j31e6fea1jdfc8d8c3bb46c8e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net>
 <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com>
 <20051027182957.GK847@smtp.paip.net>
 <9129d8bb0510271151j31e6fea1jdfc8d8c3bb46c8e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9129d8bb0510271155l3e5a200byc1b5c8c5ffa9e23b@mail.gmail.com>

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From aldert@rotz.org  Thu Oct 27 20:04:16 2005
From: aldert@rotz.org (Aldert J.B.P. Hazenberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:04:16 +0200
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20051027184707.GM847@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271049l127b9ed3k7a3ce4fb060924c@mail.gmail.com> <20051027180145.GJ847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027184707.GM847@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <436124B0.6060002@rotz.org>

Ian Goldberg wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 02:01:45PM -0400, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> 
>>I am indeed against it.  I'd like to add a (green) checkmark and a
>>(yellow) question mark to those two images.  But my image-manipulation
>>skills aren't so great.  Anyone?
> 
> 
> OK, I added the question mark to the unverified icon, and left the
> private icon as it was.  If you download beta2 again, you'll get the new
> version (yeah, I know, modifying a file once I've announced it; but it's
> only been up for an hour :-p ).
> 
> If you don't want to download the betas, you can see the new icons here:
> 
> http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/help/buttonhelp.php
> 
> [The text is not finished yet, but the icons are there.]
> 

Two thumbs up here !!

Aldert.

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Thu Oct 27 20:38:25 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:38:25 -0400
Subject: [OTR-users] gaim-otr and otrproxy beta 2
In-Reply-To: <9129d8bb0510271155l3e5a200byc1b5c8c5ffa9e23b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20051016211421.GT847@smtp.paip.net> <20051027172824.GI847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271106p7b214626v660f9eecb6c5dd5c@mail.gmail.com> <20051027182957.GK847@smtp.paip.net> <9129d8bb0510271151j31e6fea1jdfc8d8c3bb46c8e6@mail.gmail.com> <9129d8bb0510271155l3e5a200byc1b5c8c5ffa9e23b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20051027193825.GN847@smtp.paip.net>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:55:15AM -0700, CLAY SHENTRUP wrote:
> Five icon states (unless you want "finished" to be agnostic to
> verification):
> 
> Unencrypted

"Not private"

> Verified Encrypted

"Private"

> Unverified Encrypted

"Unverified"

> Verified Finished
> Unverified Finished

What's the difference between these states?  They're both "Finished".

You only need to distinguish between verified and unverified
fingerprints when you're actually using one.

   - Ian

From abanks@bcianswers.com  Mon Oct 31 21:05:51 2005
From: abanks@bcianswers.com (Al Banks)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:05:51 -0600
Subject: [OTR-users] Solaris 10 Compile problems
Message-ID: <4366872F.6010503@bcianswers.com>

Has anyone attempted to compile gaim-otr and libotr on Solaris 10? 
./configure works fine, given the correct path to libgcrypt, but compile 
stops here:

bash-3.00# make
make  all-recursive
make[1]: Entering directory `/export/home/abanks/download/libotr-2.0.2'
Making all in src
make[2]: Entering directory `/export/home/abanks/download/libotr-2.0.2/src'
/bin/bash ../libtool --mode=link gcc  -g -O2   -o libotr.la -rpath 
/usr/local/lib -version-info 1:2:0  -L/opt/csw/lib -lgcrypt 
-L/opt/csw/lib -lgpg-error privkey.lo context.lo proto.lo b64.lo dh.lo 
mem.lo message.lo userstate.lo tlv.lo
rm -fr  .libs/libotr.so .libs/libotr.so.1 .libs/libotr.so.1.0.2
gcc -shared -Wl,-h -Wl,libotr.so.1 -o .libs/libotr.so.1.0.2 
.libs/privkey.o .libs/context.o .libs/proto.o .libs/b64.o .libs/dh.o 
.libs/mem.o .libs/message.o .libs/userstate.o .libs/tlv.o 
-R/opt/csw/lib -R/opt/csw/lib -L/opt/csw/lib /opt/csw/lib/libgcrypt.so 
/opt/csw/lib/libgpg-error.so -lc
(cd .libs && rm -f libotr.so.1 && ln -s libotr.so.1.0.2 libotr.so.1)
(cd .libs && rm -f libotr.so && ln -s libotr.so.1.0.2 libotr.so)
false cru .libs/libotr.a  privkey.o context.o proto.o b64.o dh.o mem.o 
message.o userstate.o tlv.o
make[2]: *** [libotr.la] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/export/home/abanks/download/libotr-2.0.2/src'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/export/home/abanks/download/libotr-2.0.2'
make: *** [all] Error 2

Any ideas?

Thanks!
-A

From ian@cypherpunks.ca  Mon Oct 31 21:29:34 2005
From: ian@cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:29:34 -0500
Subject: [OTR-users] Solaris 10 Compile problems
In-Reply-To: <4366872F.6010503@bcianswers.com>
References: <4366872F.6010503@bcianswers.com>
Message-ID: <20051031212934.GE847@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 03:05:51PM -0600, Al Banks wrote:
> Has anyone attempted to compile gaim-otr and libotr on Solaris 10? 
> ./configure works fine, given the correct path to libgcrypt, but compile 
> stops here:
> 
> false cru .libs/libotr.a  privkey.o context.o proto.o b64.o dh.o mem.o 
> message.o userstate.o tlv.o
> make[2]: *** [libotr.la] Error 1

For some reason, your "ar" got set to "false".  Can you investigate as
to why that might be?

[This should probably be on otr-dev, but no big deal.]

   - Ian

From bstanfield@gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 21:36:21 2005
From: bstanfield@gmail.com (Ben Stanfield)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:36:21 -0500
Subject: [OTR-users] iChat and Encryption
Message-ID: <4b36c2bb0510311336h21b57aedg78f8680a5defd706@mail.gmail.com>

Apple released Software Update 10.4.3 this afternoon, and in the
release notes includes this tidbit:

".Mac members can enable encrypted chat sessions after installing this update."

I can't find any other information on the Apple site, but I'm curious
if anyone knows if they're using OTR for their encrypted iChat
sessions.

<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301984>

Ben
--
Ben Stanfield
Executive Editor, MacSlash
www.MacSlash.org
ben@macslash.org