From alex323 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  5 21:58:30 2005
From: alex323 at gmail.com (alex323)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:58:30 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] Multiple Accounts online
Message-ID: <42A3ADC6.5030305@gmail.com>

Heh. I recently discovered that OTR doesn't like it when I am logged in 
once from two different machines. I've read the protocol enough to know 
why :)

Any ideas to support this?

 - Alex
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From ian at cypherpunks.ca  Mon Jun  6 08:52:33 2005
From: ian at cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:52:33 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] Multiple Accounts online
In-Reply-To: <42A3ADC6.5030305@gmail.com>
References: <42A3ADC6.5030305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050606125233.GB1071@smtp.paip.net>

On Sun, Jun 05, 2005 at 09:58:30PM -0400, alex323 wrote:
> Heh. I recently discovered that OTR doesn't like it when I am logged in 
> once from two different machines. I've read the protocol enough to know 
> why :)
> 
> Any ideas to support this?

That's a known problem with protocols (like AIM, since they changed its
behaviour) that allow you to log in more than once, and send copies of
your incoming messages to all of your logins.  [Jabber, for example,
doesn't have this problem, since it distinguishes your logins.]

What *should* happen here?  If Alice is logged in multiple times, and
Bob tries to start an OTR conversation with her, all of her clients
will receive the OTR Query message, and will respond with a Key
Exchange.  Bob will then receive multiple Key Exchanges.  What should he
do then?  [It's even worse if Bob is also logged in multiple times!]

   - Ian


From gdt at ir.bbn.com  Mon Jun 13 10:18:32 2005
From: gdt at ir.bbn.com (Greg Troxel)
Date: 13 Jun 2005 10:18:32 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] Multiple Accounts online
In-Reply-To: <20050606125233.GB1071@smtp.paip.net>
References: <42A3ADC6.5030305@gmail.com> <20050606125233.GB1071@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <rmiis0inxvr.fsf@fnord.ir.bbn.com>

Ian Goldberg <ian at cypherpunks.ca> writes:

> On Sun, Jun 05, 2005 at 09:58:30PM -0400, alex323 wrote:
> > Heh. I recently discovered that OTR doesn't like it when I am logged in 
> > once from two different machines. I've read the protocol enough to know 
> > why :)
> > 
> > Any ideas to support this?
> 
> That's a known problem with protocols (like AIM, since they changed its
> behaviour) that allow you to log in more than once, and send copies of
> your incoming messages to all of your logins.  [Jabber, for example,
> doesn't have this problem, since it distinguishes your logins.]

Jabber doesn't have this problem, but I find otr/jabber to be
problematic.  I think the problem arises from sending messages without
an explicit resource until there is a conversation in progress, but I
haven't tracked it down.

> What *should* happen here?  If Alice is logged in multiple times, and
> Bob tries to start an OTR conversation with her, all of her clients
> will receive the OTR Query message, and will respond with a Key
> Exchange.  Bob will then receive multiple Key Exchanges.  What should he
> do then?  [It's even worse if Bob is also logged in multiple times!]

This is a tough call, but it seems that e2e crypto state requires
naming (weakly) the actual endpoints, so someone we have to construct
point-to-point channels from the multicast channel that is provided.
So one would have to add resource names on top of things like AIM.

-- 
        Greg Troxel <gdt at ir.bbn.com>


From deckrider at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 13:15:13 2005
From: deckrider at gmail.com (David Everly)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:15:13 -0600
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
Message-ID: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org>

Hi,

I'm working on a small plugin that helps filter out spam/bots by
implementing a simple challenge/response system, where the user of the
plugin defines a question and an answer.

When an unknown user first sends an IM to the plugin user, this message
is not displayed but stored for later display, which will happen if the
unknown user answer the question correctly.  The unknown user is sent an
IM asking the user defined question.  Subsequent messages from that user
are ignored until the question is answered correctly.

If gaim_find_conversation_with_account(*sender, account) does not return
NULL, then all of this logic is not used, since it is assumed that there
is already an active conversation (possibly started by the plugin user).

Also none of this logic is used if the user is already in the buddy or
permit list.

Here is the source code for the plugin:

http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/*checkout*/qrc/trunk/bot-challenger/bot-challenger.c

Any ideas regarding how I should alter this plugin to make it work with
gaim-otr?

Thanks,
Dave.
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From ian at cypherpunks.ca  Mon Jun 20 13:53:10 2005
From: ian at cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:53:10 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
Message-ID: <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 11:15:13AM -0600, David Everly wrote:
> Any ideas regarding how I should alter this plugin to make it work with
> gaim-otr?

What problems are you seeing now?  gaim unfortunately has only a basic
architecture for plugins to intercept messages; there's no way (that I
know of) to specify the *order* the plugins are called, so it's hard to
predict whether your plugin will be called before or after gaim-otr.

Also, IIRC, when plugins send messages via the serv_send_im() interface,
they don't go through the plugin chain at all, so the "question" message
your plugin sends will have no opportunity to get encrypted by gaim-otr
(if you use that interface).

   - Ian


From deckrider at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 16:45:15 2005
From: deckrider at gmail.com (David Everly)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:45:15 -0600
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 01:53:10PM -0400, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 11:15:13AM -0600, David Everly wrote:
> > Any ideas regarding how I should alter this plugin to make it work with
> > gaim-otr?
> 
> What problems are you seeing now?  gaim unfortunately has only a basic
> architecture for plugins to intercept messages; there's no way (that I
> know of) to specify the *order* the plugins are called, so it's hard to
> predict whether your plugin will be called before or after gaim-otr.

Thanks for responding.  While trying document for you the exact problems
I was seeing, it helped me find and fix a bug in my plugin!

> Also, IIRC, when plugins send messages via the serv_send_im() interface,
> they don't go through the plugin chain at all, so the "question" message
> your plugin sends will have no opportunity to get encrypted by gaim-otr
> (if you use that interface).

Yes, its the serv_send_im() that is problematic, as it causes error
messages on both sides indicating that it should have been encrypted but
was not.  Otherwise it works fine (after fixing my bugs).

Perhaps you have a suggestion for an alternative?

-- 
Encrypted Mail Preferred:
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From paulkierstead at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 16:49:03 2005
From: paulkierstead at gmail.com (Paul Kierstead)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:49:03 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
	 <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net>
	 <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
Message-ID: <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/05, David Everly <deckrider at gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, its the serv_send_im() that is problematic, as it causes error
> messages on both sides indicating that it should have been encrypted but
> was not. Otherwise it works fine (after fixing my bugs).
> 

An alternative to this would be great since I see the same problem with 
buddy pounces; they end up going in the clear. I presume they use the same 
function...maybe time to pitch the GAIM guys.

PK
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From ian at cypherpunks.ca  Mon Jun 20 17:00:13 2005
From: ian at cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:00:13 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 04:49:03PM -0400, Paul Kierstead wrote:
> On 6/20/05, David Everly <deckrider at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, its the serv_send_im() that is problematic, as it causes error
> > messages on both sides indicating that it should have been encrypted but
> > was not. Otherwise it works fine (after fixing my bugs).
> > 
> 
> An alternative to this would be great since I see the same problem with 
> buddy pounces; they end up going in the clear. I presume they use the same 
> function...maybe time to pitch the GAIM guys.

I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the plugins do
their work.

Note: if your plugin intercepts outgoing messages, be careful not to get
into a loop!

   - Ian


From evan.s at dreskin.net  Mon Jun 20 18:13:12 2005
From: evan.s at dreskin.net (Evan Schoenberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:13:12 -0500
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net>
Message-ID: <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net>


On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Ian Goldberg wrote:

> I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
> gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the plugins do
> their work.

Right, I don't think anything external to the gaim core should ever  
call serv_send_im().  gaim_conv_im_send() and gaim_conv_chat_send()  
are the way to fly.

-Evan
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From deckrider at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 18:55:52 2005
From: deckrider at gmail.com (David Everly)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:55:52 -0600
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net> <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net>
Message-ID: <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>

Unfortunately in my case there is not yet a conversation, since
gaim_find_conversation_with_account(*sender, account) == NULL

The scenario is that a stranger is sending me an IM for the first time,
and my plugin needs to send a few messages to the stranger without
opening a conversation (more or less like pop-up suppression).

If the stranger answers the question correctly, then a conversation is
created.  However, the issue at hand is the time before a conversation
is created.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 05:13:12PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
> 
> On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> 
> >I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
> >gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the plugins do
> >their work.
> 
> Right, I don't think anything external to the gaim core should ever  
> call serv_send_im().  gaim_conv_im_send() and gaim_conv_chat_send()  
> are the way to fly.
> 
> -Evan



-- 
Encrypted Mail Preferred:
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From evan.s at dreskin.net  Mon Jun 20 19:07:57 2005
From: evan.s at dreskin.net (Evan Schoenberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:07:57 -0500
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net> <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net> <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
Message-ID: <84685328-BA62-4E86-9E95-F03DB216663F@dreskin.net>

Ick.  Gaim's core offers no way to create a GaimConv without  
triggering the UI op for it.  It seems like this is a split which  
would need to be done coreside; the conversation should be created  
before any of the plugin triggers are made.

-Evan

On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:55 PM, David Everly wrote:

> Unfortunately in my case there is not yet a conversation, since
> gaim_find_conversation_with_account(*sender, account) == NULL
>
> The scenario is that a stranger is sending me an IM for the first  
> time,
> and my plugin needs to send a few messages to the stranger without
> opening a conversation (more or less like pop-up suppression).
>
> If the stranger answers the question correctly, then a conversation is
> created.  However, the issue at hand is the time before a conversation
> is created.
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 05:13:12PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
>>> gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the  
>>> plugins do
>>> their work.
>>>
>>
>> Right, I don't think anything external to the gaim core should ever
>> call serv_send_im().  gaim_conv_im_send() and gaim_conv_chat_send()
>> are the way to fly.
>>
>> -Evan
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Encrypted Mail Preferred:
>     Key ID:  8527B9AF
>     Key Fingerprint:  E1B6 40B6 B73F 695E 0D3B  644E 6427 DD74 8527  
> B9AF
>     Information:  http://www.gnupg.org/
>
> ASCII ribbon campaign:
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> /\  against Microsoft attachments
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>

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From deckrider at gmail.com  Mon Jun 20 19:14:11 2005
From: deckrider at gmail.com (David Everly)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:14:11 -0600
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <84685328-BA62-4E86-9E95-F03DB216663F@dreskin.net>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net> <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net> <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <84685328-BA62-4E86-9E95-F03DB216663F@dreskin.net>
Message-ID: <20050620231410.GD23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:07:57PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
> Ick.  Gaim's core offers no way to create a GaimConv without  
> triggering the UI op for it.  It seems like this is a split which  
> would need to be done coreside; the conversation should be created  
> before any of the plugin triggers are made.

Sorry for being dense....but I assume that you mean for working with
existing gaim-1.3.1, there is currently no other option for my plugin?

Or is this some course of action I can take in the plugin (and need help
to understand)?

> On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:55 PM, David Everly wrote:
> 
> >Unfortunately in my case there is not yet a conversation, since
> >gaim_find_conversation_with_account(*sender, account) == NULL
> >
> >The scenario is that a stranger is sending me an IM for the first  
> >time,
> >and my plugin needs to send a few messages to the stranger without
> >opening a conversation (more or less like pop-up suppression).
> >
> >If the stranger answers the question correctly, then a conversation is
> >created.  However, the issue at hand is the time before a conversation
> >is created.
> >
> >On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 05:13:12PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Ian Goldberg wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
> >>>gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the  
> >>>plugins do
> >>>their work.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Right, I don't think anything external to the gaim core should ever
> >>call serv_send_im().  gaim_conv_im_send() and gaim_conv_chat_send()
> >>are the way to fly.
> >>
> >>-Evan
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >-- 
> >Encrypted Mail Preferred:
> >    Key ID:  8527B9AF
> >    Key Fingerprint:  E1B6 40B6 B73F 695E 0D3B  644E 6427 DD74 8527  
> >B9AF
> >    Information:  http://www.gnupg.org/
> >
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> >()  against HTML email
> >/\  against Microsoft attachments
> >    Information:  http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
> >
> 



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From evan.s at dreskin.net  Mon Jun 20 19:19:59 2005
From: evan.s at dreskin.net (Evan Schoenberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:19:59 -0500
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <20050620231410.GD23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net> <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net> <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <84685328-BA62-4E86-9E95-F03DB216663F@dreskin.net> <20050620231410.GD23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org>
Message-ID: <6971AE98-61A7-4841-86F2-5B5D518BF74F@dreskin.net>

My fault for being unclear.  I meant that there is currently no other  
option for your plugin.  Looking at gtk-gaim 1.3.1, the  
gaim_conversation_new() function necessarily opens a window.  I was  
going to suggest creating the GaimConv* yourself... but the moment  
you call gaim_conversation_new() with the info you've been passed,  
you would trigger that window opening.

So a change needs to be made gaimside; it's not an OTR issue but a  
Gaim issue preventing you from being able to use gaim_conv_send_*()  
and therefore preventing you from routing through gaim-otr your  
plugin's messages which are made before a window is opened.

I'd recommend emailing gaim-devl at lists.sourceforge.net with your  
problem.

-Evan

On Jun 20, 2005, at 6:14 PM, David Everly wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:07:57PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
>
>> Ick.  Gaim's core offers no way to create a GaimConv without
>> triggering the UI op for it.  It seems like this is a split which
>> would need to be done coreside; the conversation should be created
>> before any of the plugin triggers are made.
>>
>
> Sorry for being dense....but I assume that you mean for working with
> existing gaim-1.3.1, there is currently no other option for my plugin?
>
> Or is this some course of action I can take in the plugin (and need  
> help
> to understand)?
>
>
>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 5:55 PM, David Everly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Unfortunately in my case there is not yet a conversation, since
>>> gaim_find_conversation_with_account(*sender, account) == NULL
>>>
>>> The scenario is that a stranger is sending me an IM for the first
>>> time,
>>> and my plugin needs to send a few messages to the stranger without
>>> opening a conversation (more or less like pop-up suppression).
>>>
>>> If the stranger answers the question correctly, then a  
>>> conversation is
>>> created.  However, the issue at hand is the time before a  
>>> conversation
>>> is created.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 05:13:12PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 20, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Ian Goldberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I haven't tested this at all, but you could try using
>>>>> gaim_conv_im_send() instead; that function seems to let the
>>>>> plugins do
>>>>> their work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right, I don't think anything external to the gaim core should ever
>>>> call serv_send_im().  gaim_conv_im_send() and gaim_conv_chat_send()
>>>> are the way to fly.
>>>>
>>>> -Evan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
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From ian at cypherpunks.ca  Tue Jun 21 09:50:20 2005
From: ian at cypherpunks.ca (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:50:20 -0400
Subject: [OTR-dev] how to play nice with gaim-otr
In-Reply-To: <6971AE98-61A7-4841-86F2-5B5D518BF74F@dreskin.net>
References: <20050620171513.GE9819@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <20050620175310.GL1071@smtp.paip.net> <20050620204515.GA23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6131374505062013491dbc08b1@mail.gmail.com> <20050620210013.GA8008@smtp.paip.net> <A0DC0043-DC79-44D9-97A3-76540C36092F@dreskin.net> <20050620225552.GC23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <84685328-BA62-4E86-9E95-F03DB216663F@dreskin.net> <20050620231410.GD23596@elbert.is-a-geek.org> <6971AE98-61A7-4841-86F2-5B5D518BF74F@dreskin.net>
Message-ID: <20050621135020.GB8008@smtp.paip.net>

On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 06:19:59PM -0500, Evan Schoenberg wrote:
> My fault for being unclear.  I meant that there is currently no other  
> option for your plugin.  Looking at gtk-gaim 1.3.1, the  
> gaim_conversation_new() function necessarily opens a window.  I was  
> going to suggest creating the GaimConv* yourself... but the moment  
> you call gaim_conversation_new() with the info you've been passed,  
> you would trigger that window opening.
> 
> So a change needs to be made gaimside; it's not an OTR issue but a  
> Gaim issue preventing you from being able to use gaim_conv_send_*()  
> and therefore preventing you from routing through gaim-otr your  
> plugin's messages which are made before a window is opened.
> 
> I'd recommend emailing gaim-devl at lists.sourceforge.net with your  
> problem.

In fact, I'd say you don't really *want* a GaimConvIm.  You want a way
to trigger the plugins when you send a message without having to have
one.

You _can_ (uglily) do this now: use serv_send_im(), but before you do,
trigger the plugins yourself by calling

    gaim_signal_emit(gaim_conversations_get_handle(), "sending-im-msg",
	     account, name, &msg);

But I agree there should be a way to do this "in" the gaim core.

   - Ian